What are your thoughts on the outsourcing?

[Admin]

This forum is to help us ensure that all our concerns are communicated to the management and that we don't miss out on matching our benefits.

[Dukeva]

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[daniel craig's mum]

I spoke to the employee advice line yesterday (one of the many benefits we stand to lose). They advised that we are entitled to claim industry standard redundancy payments through "custom & practice". This is the most definitive site:
http://www.pjhlaw.co.uk/blog/enhanced-redundancy-payments-via-custom-and-practice/: "For those of you out there wrestling with the issue as to whether an enhanced redundancy payment scheme has become contractual by custom and practice, there is a useful review of the relevant cases ...
In summary if a scheme has been regularly used down the years, at different times, and has been communicated then it is likely to become incorporated into the employees’ contracts by custom and practice." In actual fact, our case, I believe, is much stronger than the tribunal transcript provided on their website because there is total consistency, over a longer period of time, that has been communicated in the employee forum minutes extensively, and is INDUSTRY practice (not just our employer). I think we have a very strong case for insisting that our redundancy expectations are agreed for any point in the future when we are either made redundant or offered redundancy if/when our contracts/terms and conditions are altered by the new company. If this is not agreed, and it got as far as a tribunal, I feel certain that we would win this, at least.

Custom & practice also covers other things, like doing different roles/hours that are not in contracts, bonuses, etc.

The transfer of our employment is covered under a TUPE (Transfer of Undertakings protection of Employment Regulations). There's more information on the ACAS website. Basically, all our existing contracts, benefits, entitlements, etc. are transferred across as if they have always been with the new employer. This is even to the extent that if one of us decided to sue for bad treatment by our existing (previous) employer a year ago, we would actually sue the new employer, not the culprit!

It is likely that the new agreement will not be exactly the same (because it is hard to imagine how the new employer will meet things like the employee advice line etc). Consequently we are likely to receive a Compromise Agreement. It would not be unreasonable for us to request the bank to pay for us to see a lawyer to check this new contract. However, if any erosion of terms and conditions (at this time or later under the new employer) are deemed to be 'justified', then we are stuck. There are limitations to the erosion of our terms and conditions though.

I'll be talking to my union tomorrow and will check these things (and a more extensive list) with them.

[WhitneyHouston]

FYI -

Further to the above regarding the employee forum and the communication of the enhanced redundency payments. I have gone through all the minutes from the meetings dating back to 2001 and printed the relevant minutes that state that the business pay an "enhanced package" (or similar). This has been communicated on several occasions over the past few years.

[daniel craig]

Unfortunately I missed the call from my union. I called back to hear that the rep is now unavailable and might not get back to me today. I'll keep trying but I know that other members are trying the same route so this might answer some of the questions in the meantime?

A colleague raised a good question yesterday about whether we should request that the same employment lawyer checks all our contracts to ensure that we are all being treated fairly. I think this is a good point, although there's also the counter-argument that if we had different lawyers, then we may be more likely to pick up on any problems. I suppose that there's enough of us that we could have two or three different lawyers between us, which could achieve the best of all worlds? (Of course we're some way from that stage yet, but it might be worth thinking about now so that we're ready when the time comes.)

I know a good City employment lawyer who comes highly recommended. Alternatively/additionally there's the company who published the very useful information on custom & practice along with tribunal transcript, which I think is very impressive: http://www.pjhlaw.co.uk/. They're not London-based but I see that as no restriction with modern technology (they even skype).

Just something else for us all to ponder while we're collating our expectations of terms & conditions and seeking further advice.

[daniel craig]

I spoke to rep at union this morning. She was really lovely and said she deals with this sort of thing all the time and not to worry at all as she promises that everything will go across smoothly and that we will get EVERYTHING that we currently enjoy/to which we are entitled (even if not currently using). The union publishes booklets on TUPE and redundancy and she's sending both to me (should receive tomorrow). The booklets are apparently well-written and cover such things as consultation. So I'm inclined to wait until having read these before reverting to management with list of expectations/questions for our new contracts (although I do wonder if they'll actually say any more than we've already researched independently, but you never know).

In the highly unlikely event that we do have a problem, the union will back members who've got 6 months' subs paid and provide lawyers for tribunal. The union will also look over members old/new contracts for free. This reassured me a bit and I didn't bother getting into each individual benefit that we want transferred as think this is covered under "everything".

However, I ran the redundancy issue past her and she agreed with the position put forward by management that we would only be entitled to 1 week/year's service. She said however that most companies offer more than that (not just banks). I asked her about custom & practice as a way of shoring this up before signing our new contracts and she'd never heard of it (not quite so reassuring), however, this was the point at which she said "don't worry, we'll provide you with lawyers if it comes to that". So I imagine that if we were made redundant and not given decent payoff, I could go to union and provide them tribunal report/precedent evidence about custom & practice that we found independently and expect them to take it on. Of course, we want reassurance that it won't come to that and that if we're made redundant we'll receive payoff without having to fight for it at that time.

I'll start putting together my list of issues to go management via Whitney, and review them in light of union booklets. I'll then send them directly to Whitney and publish them here so that we can avoid duplication and/or get ideas for further issues to be raised.

I'll be really interested to see exactly how the new employer is going to match everything to which we are currently entitled. Speaking to a colleague yesterday, we imagined that we will probably be financially recompensed instead of receiving benefits in some cases. It's very hard to calculate what value to put on many of the benefits provided currently. But I suppose there's no point jumping the gun on this (none of us saw outsourcing coming, so it's feasible that the employers may also have some way of making these benefits work that we can't envisage).

[daniel craig]

And BTW all those who mocked me (you know who you are), I have been pronouncing TUPE correctly: it's like the hairpiece!

[WhitneyHouston]

thank you DC's mum for speaking to relevant parties. I am still awaiting my call back from said Union, however i will now defer the call if you are satisfied of the outcome.

(nb. you know how whitney likes to take mock)

[Happy Elephant]

Just for the record: statutory redundancy differs from person to person, depending on age and of course length of service. Worryingly, there is a weekly cap of £330 which means that even with a decent stretch of service (and a more mature age), the statutory pay-off is extremely curtailed. More specific information can be found at the link below:

http://www.berr.gov.uk/cgi-bin/er_feb07_reconner.pl

Apparently other Pres offices around the world have already started to submit their questions/aspirations/concerns to their local HR rep. Today, in the office, we have been invited to do the same and asked to write our emails this evening for submission by our shift rep in order that London does not fall behind. We have been notified that we can expect to start receiving preliminary answers by the end of this week (17/10/08).

[daniel craig]

Tx Happy Elephant. I sent a mail to senior manager reassuring her that we are working hard to consider our positions and will have a list of questions soon. Manager replied that the business is aware of concerns, hoping to answer questions soon, and willing to answer questions on an ongoing basis thereafter.

[Happy Elephant]

as of 15/10/08. Mgmt will keep us posted.

[daniel craig]

I received the Amicus publication on TUPE regulations today. The union was right: it is a very good booklet that answers many of our basic questions and gives us the appropriate language to communicate on the topic. I'll bring it into the office at the w/e and photocopy it for anyone who wants a copy. The booklet explains that we are allowed to spend company time/resources in researching and discussing the transfer, so we do not have to hide our education efforts from management (which is nice to know that we don't have to feel that we're doing anything behind anyone's back).

[Boy George]

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[Boy George]

Hi Guys,

Just seen the Questions that was sent to Michelle yesterday morning and am worried about a couple of things.

There was one questions that asks:

1. Will the jobs with the vendor be guaranteed for at least the first year?

I think this should be changed to at least 2 to 3 years as analysts are speculating that unemployment is going to rise by end of Dec 2009 from 1.79 million to 3 million. Its the perfect time for the new company to get rid of us especially as our guarantee of 1 year will expire by the end of Dec 2009. I also have a friend who worked for a big company like UBS which was outsourced to Williams Lea. They guaranteed that she will not be made redundant for at least 2 years and if she was made redundant during that time, she would receive the generous package that her previous employer would have given her.

The other question put forward to Michelle was:

2. If we are made redundant and vendor only offers 1 week for every year worked, will UBS match the other 3 weeks for every year? If UBS will not do this indefinitely would UBS consider matching for anyone made redundant within the first year or two.

Again, this question has offered the outsource company and UBS a way out - it is saying to me that we are happy to take a minimum of 1 year guarantee. I personally dont want this as unemployment could possibly rise by the end of next year - I would like a guarantee of at least 2-3 years. This way we will apply pressure on them and it will give us room to negotiate.

I think the above is fair considering they are giving us the boot .........

[daniel craig]

Hi Boy George

I agree with you. The points you raise indicate some of the many reasons why we should not feel pressured to provide questions within a short timeframe (which is clearly to aid the company's negotiations with the new provider), and why we should spend time researching our positions/entitlements and agreeing on a way forward together (the reason for having representatives).

I am pleased to hear that jobs have been guaranteed in other organisations as I did not think that this would be possible in this economic climate. The questions that I am formulating I have taken from the TUPE regulations. I had therefore planned to ask what, if any, redundancies were envisaged. But given your information, I think I'll discuss this with my representative first.

I don't think that we need to put a time limit on decent redundancy payouts at all (I'm really disappointed that this question has slipped through as it undermines the custom & practice argument). Custom & practice (see earlier) indicates that we are already contractually entitled to current-employer-standard redundancy settlements if and when the time comes. We should therefore ensure that we take this entitlement with us - for any point in the future.

Thanks for your information. Perhaps the rep who already issued the relevant questions could renegotiate the issue with management to ensure that those questions are not taken as the limit of our requirements in this area? Perhaps it would be a good idea for reps to have a meeting to ensure that we are not undermining or contradicting ourselves. The stakes are too high for us to be rushed into committing ourselves by a management team potentially using the questions and requirements that we put forward in negotiations with our new employer. Obviously we are all very grateful to those who offered to represent us; TUPE regulations demand that they are allowed company time and resources (without penalty to representatives) in order to fulfil their roles, and I think that we should support them in this.

Tx