Re: What are your thoughts on the outsourcing?

[Boy George]

Hi Guys,

Im on the graveyard shift and Im not sure how we would do this, but I would also like to be included in the new submission of questions. I feel that I am not being represented properly and cannot do much about it. Please can anyone advise me how to go about this. Surely the revised questions will replace the previous version anyway. Can someone confirm this?

Thanks

[Lovely Guinness]

Thanks to everyone for all the hard work and input. To add my 2p's worth (no pun intended!) I'm also on GY shift and would prefer that the revised questions are submitted

[Ray Winstone's wife]

I'm a little confused as to peoples reference to us being in a consultation period and would like to know where this is coming from? As far as I am aware there has not been a decision from UBS as to which company will be taking over (at least not one that has been made official) and until that time how can we be in a consultation period if there is no official company to consult with??? I'm not sure if I've got this wrong but I got the impression that the questions we are sending are an informal way to alleviate any fears that we have, has there been further communication from Dimitrios regarding this?

Dear All,

Many thanks for taking the time to compile a list of initial questions that you wish to have answered following the communication delivered last Friday. Michelle has sent these onto me.

As soon as we are in a position to do so, communications will commence with the relevant parties and we will work together to answer your questions fully.

Please continue to forward onto your shift managers or your HR representative any further questions you may have.

Kind regards
Dimitrios

Have I missed out on some vital piece of communication informing us that we are negotiating our contracts? As far as I'm aware until there is a company involved we are NOT in a consultation period and we are not negotiating our contracts with these questions. Once we know who our new employers are then will come the negotiations and we can try to get the contracts each individual person wants. The time of contracts being given to us may be the final part of the process but that is a little way off yet. I'm preparing myself for meetings with both UBS HR and NewCo HR over the next coming month and until that time I don't think we should be panicking about being in a consultation period.

Or have I got this completely wrong?

[daniel craig]

Hi Ray's wife

I'm a little confused as to peoples reference to us being in a consultation period and would like to know where this is coming from?

This information comes from the TUPE regs booklet posted previously on the forum in acrobat form and hard copies left on the fruit table in the middle of the team room last w/e (there was a master copy, so they should not have all gone): help yourself. The regs handbook seemed quite clear (although it's possible that we might have misunderstood it) that the consultation period actually starts with the transferor and that it is their responsibility to try to achieve employees' expectations with the transferee (whoever they may be). That's why we were told about the transfer before a transferee had been assigned and why the process starts before contracts are issued. I've never been through this before, so your experience is valuable to all of us. Please keep the posts coming as I know I found them reassuring. But I don't think that anyone's panicking about anything (although I reserve the right to panic in the future if the mood takes me!).

[The Beatles]

At no point did “one person” decide what should or should not be included and questions were not deleted, merely “organised”. It was felt that asking the same question five times in a grammatically-flawed fashion, asking about 20 different benefits in 20 different questions and asking questions to which we already knew the answers was counter-productive to the consultation process and potentially wasting resources that should be focused on providing a collective, air-tight, mutually beneficial contract for the whole team.

Hi all, i'm happy for the revised set of questions to be sent out, but i would rather we included the questions "to which we already knew the answers" I want to be absolutely sure that our understanding of the answers is the same as HR's or the new company's.

[Ray Winstone's wife]

Hi Daniel Craig,

Of course everyone is entitled to panic if they want to, just like everyone is entitled to their own opinions and to have the questions they want to ask answered. I just feel that it may be helpful to everyone if we try keep everything in perspective (after all it is a very anxious time for all of us and reading some of the posts on here (for example suggestions that these questions are our only chance to get the contact right and once the contracts are issued there is no going back, may increase their anxiety)).

Although this is the beginning of the process, these questions are initial questions and are by no means the be all and end all of our negotiations. Irrespective of how the questions are worded or not worded, we will all get the chance to speak in person to both HR representatives with regards to our concerns. UBS is well aware that we will want to receive everything that we receive now and infact so is the law (hense TUPE law to begin with which states that we as employees will receive everything in our current contact or better. I also believe that Andrew S. said in the meeting that they want everything to go through with little change and distruption and I think until this is proved otherwise we should except that this is the case.

I am by no means trying to critisise anyone for their reactions or opinions but am simply stating that by law the new company has to give us what we have now and these questions will most probably not affect how our contracts are written but are simply an informal means to start the ball rolling. I'm sure that before the final contacts are issued we will have plenty of time to ask questions and read them through thoroughly to ensure that we are completely happy before signing. This is our right by law and can challenge the company if they do not do this.

[daniel craig]

... i'm happy for the revised set of questions to be sent out, but i would rather we included the questions "to which we already knew the answers" I want to be absolutely sure that our understanding of the answers is the same as HR's or the new company's.

This was done: see Whitney's previous postings and italicised questions in revised revised questions. Please advise if you think there's anything missing.

[The Beatles]

yes you're right it is all there, apologies, was thrown by the comment. many thanks for all of your work on this, i've read through the list and it seems pretty exhaustive. Can't think of anything else that should be added.

Has it been sent?

[WhitneyHouston]

FYI

The Trade Union rep called this morning and left a message on my mobile, in response to recieving the revised questions last week:

Quote: "Thank you for emailing the questions over ... Brilliant, couldnt have done it better myself, absolutely brilliant". Unquote

She then went on to state that we must really focus on our pensions and what the new provision is. As we already know pensions do not carry across under TUPE.

[daniel craig]

Thanks Whitney, It's good to know we're going in the right direction.

The TV news has just featured a demonstration at Dover port about outsourcing. Our union is objecting to the outsourcing on the basis of potential erosion of terms and conditions and especially pensions. http://www.amicustheunion.org/Default.aspx?page=9505. Unlike in our case, the union at Dover is recognised by the authority to negotiate on members' behalf so the union acted as soon as the announcement was made. However, like in our case, the authority's announcement was made before the outsourcing provider had been identified, suggesting that this is the normal (and presumably legal - why else would they do it?) process.

It would be good to know what the problem is around pensions as this has been emphasised a couple of times by the union as the thing to focus on. As our current employer doesn't match any contributions, I don't see how the new pension (that has to be provided and match 6% of contributions) can possibly be worse? Perhaps those with experience of TUPEs can explain this please as I must be missing something?

[Knightrider]

FYI

The Trade Union rep called this morning and left a message on my mobile, in response to recieving the revised questions last week:

Quote: "Thank you for emailing the questions over ... Brilliant, couldnt have done it better myself, absolutely brilliant". Unquote

She then went on to state that we must really focus on our pensions and what the new provision is. As we already know pensions do not carry across under TUPE.

That's brilliant feedback, well done !!

Here is a link with regards to TUPE and pensions, might be worth it getting in touch with them

[biteme]

... I just wanted to say a big thank you to the main posters and the reps for taking the time to do this well and doing the research.

Regarding the comment about sticking heads in the sand - let's not be hasty in judging people: this forum wasn't widely publicised (I know of at least one person who was only told today) and there my be others (including myself) who have been reading without posting.

[Frank1]

"What do you need to do to comply with TUPE?
(1) Outgoing employer must inform and consult with staff

Employers involved in a business transfer must inform and consult with appropriate representatives of the affected employees about the transfer and any measures proposed. Certain specified information must be provided to the representatives long enough before the transfer to enable the outgoing employer to consult with them about it.

If there are any changes or proposals for changes following the transfer, these "measures" will have to be discussed with the representatives of the affected employees The incoming employer is required to provide the outgoing employer with information on proposed measures to allow the outgoing employer to comply with their duty to inform and consult. There is no set timetable for consultation, but the larger the transaction and the more staff affected, the longer the timetable will need to be.

If there is a failure to inform and consult, a complaint can be made to the Employment Tribunal. If successful, the Tribunal can award whatever compensation it considers just and equitable having regard to the seriousness of the employer's failure up to a maximum of 13 weeks' pay per affected employee. Information and consultation failures can now result in joint and several liability between the outgoing and incoming employers, unless the contract governing the transfer clearly caters for apportionment of liability here."

[The Beatles]

Hi all i found the following on the web


http://www.personneltoday.com/discussionforumthreads/2007/06/29/1/26155_54b55df1-5d4d-4365-9ad7-e0cb5bb737ed/change-of-commission-bonus-under-tupe-question.html

don't know how valid it is but wondering if anybody had any views or further info on this.

[daniel craig]

Thanks Beatle, that link's really positive. I think the same should apply to a host of things that we may now miss out on. And, as I've noted before on the forum, especially redundancy packages. The offer of 15 months is fine until 15 months and 1 day, but under custom & practice we shouldn't have to restrict ourselves to any timeframe. It's definitely worth sorting this stuff out at this stage. I know we discussed before the possibility of talking to a lawyer. Our current employer seems not to have answered the question about funding this yet, but an expert in TUPE/custom&practice might really be worth tracking down to see how much they'd charge to review some of our questions on this (we might even swing free answers via a exploratory phone call with the suggestion of future work).